The following is a translation of an interview with graphic designers that were involved with the development of the 2016 video game Dark Souls III that was published by the website CGWorld Entry. The interview was originally published in two parts in 2018, with first part being published on January 31 and the second part on February 7. I decided to combine them into one interview for this translation
This was part of the same series of interviews as the previously translated Metal Gear Survive and Monster Hunter World interviews from the same website. Unlike those interviews though, the developers in this installment were kept anonymous and are primarily referred by their job titles, with the manager and the motion designer being the only people who allowed themselves to be photographed.
The interview focuses mainly on two bosses that appear in “The Ringed City” add-on content, with the first part focusing on how the character model for the Darkeater Midir was created, while the second part focuses on the motions for the Demon Prince, but also discuss a bit on the worldbuilding of the Dark Souls universe and how the characters were created.
You can find the original Japanese articles on the following links
Manager (M) - Joined From Software in 1997. Started his career as a modeller and now oversees the 3DCG department. Involved with the recruitment of new artists.
Design Manager (DM) - Joined From Software in 2001. Performs production work while leading the design department. Also involved in the recruitment of new artists.
3D Graphic Artist (3DGA) - Self-trained in CGI while majoring in economics during his college years. Despite graduating with a different major, he joined From Software in 2014. After modelling environments for over two years, he was promoted to work on character models.
Motion Designer (MD) - Joined From Software in 2014 after studying 3DCG production at the Amusement Media College in Osaka. He’s been assigned to do character animation as a motion designer.
From Software - Originally a developer of business applications, they joined the videogame industry in 1994. They have planned, developed and produced many games, including the Dark Souls trilogy and the Armored Core franchise. When it comes to the worldview and creations of characters that appear in their games, their emphasize their sense of realism. In addition to their headquarter in Shibuya, Tokyo, they also have a studio in Fukuoka City.
Dark Souls III: The Fire Fades Edition - An all-in-one edition of Dark Souls III that contains the original game, along with the additional content “Ashes of Ariandel” and “The Ringed City” in one package. In this article we’ll be introducing modelling work of the Darkeater Midir in the first part and the motion work of the Demon Prince in the second part, both characters who appear in “The Ringed City” add-on.
First of all, can you tell us about the organizational structure of From Software when it comes to the staff involved with character creation?
M: When it comes to the people involved with character creation, their work can be divided into three broad categories. There are designers, 3D graphic artists and motion designers. There are other occupations beside these, such as UI (user interface) designers and VFX (visual effects) artists, but because the subject is way too broad, I would like to limit our discussion to the three aforementioned categories.
DM: I served as the leader of the design department, which currently has around 30 employees. We design characters, environments and props such as weapons based on concepts and ideas from the directors and planners. Designers have also been becoming more specialized in recent years due to the ever increasing standards for game graphics. Along with that, the design department is now divided into two: with one division working on the characters and the other division on the environments.
3DGA: We currently have around 50 artists specializing in 3DCG. We produced all the 3DCG in the game based on the concept art provided by the designers. I am currently working on character models after having been assigned to working on environments for around two years. Our department is also divided into a characters division and an environment division, but depending on the CG artist’s aptitude and desire, some individuals might be assigned to work on both.
MD: There are currently 20 motion designers in the company who are assigned to animate the models created by the 3DCG artists. Some of them even create the real-time cinematics, otherwise known as “cutscenes”. I have been consistently working on character motions ever since I’ve joined the company.
So a character is created by relaying the data from the designers to the 3DCGI artists, and then to the motion designers in that order.
M: That’s pretty much the gist of it. But game development isn’t a one-way street. There are many cases where the data moves back and forth.
Could you explain the flow of character creation more clearly?
DM: First of all, the directors and planners write an “order” to create a certain character, which contains the keywords and concepts that serve as astarting point for the commissioned design. The designers then draw a concept sketch based on that. Not just characters, but environments and props are also designed in this same matter. In the case of key characters, various concept sketches are drawn by different designers and submitted to the director in order to choose the most suitable one based on a wide range of ideas and images.
In other words, you do an internal competition over which one to choose? On one hand, that means that some designs will adopted, while others will be rejected.
DM: That’s correct. To avoid preferential treatment, we give the drawings to the director without the identifying the artist so that the design most suitable for the game can be chosen. There are many instances in which we choose not just from one artist’s design, but combine multiple designs from various artists. For example, we might create a new illustrative image by combining “this part from proposal A” and “that part from proposal B”, polishing the combination and then create a finalized image. Because more than half of the characters and environments are made by combining ideas and images from various people, very few of the designs can be attributed to a specific artist.
If that’s the case, how many people contribute their ideas to a single character?
DM: If it’s a key character, probably around 10 or so people. We then show it to the producers and public relation people to our partner company who will be publishing our game and then take into consideration their opinions. If we spent too many months without a decisive design, we tried to put it on the sidelines and then we do a 3D model based on the rough design and then redo the design based on the 3D model.
M: At one point a 3D model we only intended to use as a placeholder during development caught the attention of the director and he ended up making a design order because “it looked interesting.”
DM: Because of things like that, our work isn’t exactly a one-way conveyor belt. The designer’s job isn’t to reproduce the director’s image 100% accurately. Using the written order as a base, the role of the designer is to exceed expectations in order to surprise and satisfy the director. That way players will also be satisfied. I don’t think a game that is only built around a given frame will work in today’s age. It is our department’s policy to have designers work together to strengthen their proposal power and incorporate various ideas and value.
What happens after the design work has been completed after so many twists and turns?
DM: All the designers, the director and the leaders of all the departments involved with the game (planning, 3D graphics, motions and sound) gather in a room to brainstorm ideas. We look at the concept art and discuss ideas for around 30 to 60 minutes per character such as their origin, what kind of lifestyle they have, what kind of fighting style they’ll use, how do we use this character in the game and what kind of feelings we want the players to have about them. If we consider the character’s design to be lacking in the end, then we redo the design. We very rarely completely redo a design though, but it’s normal that some fixes are made at this stage.
M: A new design order might be issued for reasons such as “these characters need to be parent and child” or “a new weapon might be needed.” But if the designer accept every request such as “I want this” and “I also want that”, their workload will exceed their limits, so it’s important that they also convey their opinions such as “if you want to add this part, then we must cut out this other part.” In such cases, not only must you add and subtract when working on a specific character, but also with the game in general. We might, for example, put more work on one character over many others since he or she might be essential to the game, demote an enemy character from its boss status if it’s not too interesting for the gameplay, or change a character’s design if it looks too similar to another character we already came up with.
A game’s worth is not judged by the completeness of a single drawing, but by prioritizing the completeness of the game as a whole. If the concept art reflects the results of the brainstorming, does that mean that you’ll immediately start working on the 3D models without any hesitation?
DM: Correct. The modellers go on to work on the character while the planners start figuring out a list of motions. The people involved with the sound and visual effects will then start working based on the premise of the 3D models and motions conceived during the brainstorming session. Nonetheless, design modifications will still occur, even after production has began.
The process does not end there? (sweating)
M: There are cases that after we create a 3D model, added the motion and put into the game, it will still be redone because it didn’t match the worldview or it wasn’t as interesting as we thought it would be. Since many From Software games have challenges that the player must confront many times before they eventually overcome them, if they end up too annoying and bothersome, the player’s good will towards the game might end up fading away. Everyone desperate think about creating images, working to increase the sense of immersion and then carefully proceed through the creative process. You could say that our process of game development is a series of repeated trial and error.
We would like to know about the workflow of a 3DCG artist, using the Darkeater Midir as our example. But before that, can you tell us about your work history prior to joining From Software? We’re curious how someone who majored in economics ended up working as an artist.
3DGA: After my first year college, I really wanted to make CGI for video games and started learning on my own by using a program called Blender. After that, I started using a version of Maya aimed at students, but since From Software was using 3ds Max at the time, I started learning to use that too once I was accepted by the company. I use Zbrush now as well.
It’s amazing that you were able to learn how to create 3DCG on your own.
3DGA: I’ve always been into video games since I was child, spending several hours playing them, so I was able to be immersed into 3DCG with the same passion. If you really like something, you’ll end up doing it while losing track of time. Even now, I still do a lot of independent work after returning home from work.
That’s such overwhelming passion. When did you start job-hunting?
3DGA: It was during July of my fourth year at college. It was a particularly late period to job hunt, so I started wondering what I was thinking. But since I’ve always been a fan of From Software, I’ve applied to their company from the beginning and was quickly accepted.
You didn’t waste much time then.
3DGA: I didn’t know the proper etiquette for job hunting, so my portfolio and interviewing skills were really rough. In retrospect, I think I might had come off a bit unprofessional. The submission guidelines at the time said that you must provide a comment of your submitted work, so I ended up printing my work using a convenience store’s printer, only to write my comments on a separate pieces of paper and stapled them together. As a result, I would adjust the printer’s colors many times and if I didn’t like how it turned out, I would return home, adjust the contrast and such, and then return to the convenience store one more time to print them again. I put all my efforts in a completely wrong approach.
M: I was wondering if he even knew how to make a portfolio. But despite being a self-trained 3DCG artist, his work was surprisingly on par with artists who were actually trained by specialized schools. He submitted a wide variety of 3D models such as characters, environments and hard surfaces, so I thought I might give him a chance with an interview. When he entered the interview room without knocking first, I thought “this can’t be good.” (bitter smile)
DM: I remember that day clearly. (bitter smile)
3DGA: I’m really sorry for that. (sweating) I watched a video guide on proper interviewing etiquette the day before, but I forgot to practice and memorize anything.
M: I was kidding about the knocking thing. (laughs) In fact, I could sense your genuine passion for modelling during our interview, which is how you ended up with your job.
DM: Career recruitment tend to focus on whether a potential employee might be ready for immediate action, but when it comes to recruiting new graduates, we don’t just consider their current skill level. We also consider how far they’re willing to grow. Especially important is the person’s willingness to do what he wants to do. People who can only answer with “somehow” will only mature up to a certain point. But those who a strong desire for a particular thing will be able to achieve it by practicing it steadily and will eventually expand to do other things too.
3DGA: In my case, I said I wanted to “make something compelling.” The characters and world building in games by From Software always have an elaborate backstory to them that provides most of their appeal and immersion. I wanted to make something like that when I’ve joined the company. I’ve also said that I wanted to be involved with a fantasy work.
It took a while to get here, but now we want to discuss the modelling work that went into Darkeater Midir.
Concept art of Darkeater Midir
3DGA: The Darkeater Midir was conceived as a dragon of destruction, so it was a particularly tremendous setting. We based the model on the concept art, have the leader of the 3D graphics department inspect it several and then proceed while consulting. We showed the model to the designer when were able to and then put the finishing touches while receiving points on how the overall shape should look. While there was never any need to have the designer redo the design, it still took 2 months to finish, including drawing the textures for the skin and preparing the game data. Originally the model was scheduled to be completed in one and a half month, so we went two weeks over-schedule.
Why did you went over-schedule?
3DGA: The short answer is that I was obsessed with my attention to detail. I wanted to put my skills to the limit, so I carved each scale one-by-one using Zbrush. If you use a duplicating tool, it will break the flow of the scale and it will no longer look convincing. I wanted to prove the limit of details that I could express on the creature by controlling each part one by one. While it might take some time, it will eventually be perfect if you continue carving it that way.
How long does it take to carve out a model?
3DGA: Around a month. This includes processes besides Zbrush, such as building a rough model.
That amount of energy that goes beyond the norm is pretty expected from From Software, but did anyone tried to stop you while on the way?
3DGA: I kept bowing my head down to be allowed to continue my sculpting. However, because my passion could not be communicated to the players, I felt I spent too much production time focusing on parts that were not very cost-effective. Still, there was a sense of my work finally being done at the end.
M: He was so obsessed with his sculpting, it became difficult to get him to work on another assignment. There’s this mentality that if you failed once, you got a lot to learn. But if you repeat the same mistakes more than once, then it becomes an issue.
3D model of Darkeater Midir (full body)
3D model of Darkeater Midir (head). Every scale was carved one by one using a tool called Zbrush by the 3D graphic artist.
3DGA: There are various kinds of dragons made by different artists. I became irritated about that, wondering if I had the skills to make such a creature or how much detail I could express in it. I wanted to hone my skills, so I challenged myself to see what I was capable of. The sculpting itself was not all that important. After sculpting, you can improve the quality of the model up to a certain extent, so the real challenge was to overcome that limit in order to find out how cool of a dragon we can make.
If you could do another like that, what would you do differently?
3DGA: I believe the finer details can be improved by using materials scanned from real objects or such. Based on previous experiences, we can now identity which parts we should focus on and which ones we should not put that much importance, rather than simply focus on everything, based on the premise that we can make a quality product within the planned period.
M: Since it takes around three years to make a single game, it’s easy to think that we might get bored along the way, but I’ve never seen any sign of that. Our enthusiasm lasts all the way until the end. On the other hand, because we’re learning about cost-effectiveness, if we gradually gain experience under such condition, then perhaps we might do a better job in whatever new title we currently have in development. That’s what I’m hoping for. I think you must know when to stop when you’re in a trance and forget to eat once in a while. (bitter smile)
Darkeater Midir, as it appears in the game. Multiple 3D models of different sizes were placed on a map during development before the most suitable one was chosen. “It isn’t simply a matter of making the dragon big” says the manager. “If you can’t see its face while fighting, it won’t look as cool. Therefore, the finalized size was determined by looking at the 3D models placed in the game” “Since it is a big dragon, it must be displayed within the game with a particular perspective” says the 3D graphic artist. “Since the hind leg will look small when the camera is close to the dragon’s face, we decided to make the dragon’s face smaller and its hind legs bigger in order to create a good balance when looking at it.”
I would like to know how you join From Software and then explain the flow of a motion designer’s work.
MD: I thought about working for the video games industry since I always loved games. So I studied 3DCG at the Amusement Media College at Osaka. On the other hand I really love moving my body and I’ve been doing track & field since middle school, so I also wanted to become an animator. I thought my experience with short and long runs, as well as spear throwing, might provide me with a certain advantage.
When did you start job hunting?
MD: Since it was a two-year program, I’ve started looking for a job around the time I’ve entered my second year. Since learning to create 3DCG took me a year and animation took me six months, I didn’t have enough time to make good work, so I didn’t have much for my demo reel. It was pretty difficult to look for a job in Osaka, so I expanded my search to include game companies located at Tokyo and I was eventually recruited by From Software. I was wondering if they somehow made a mistake in hiring me, so I’m pretty lucky in that regard.
M: Many new graduates have that mentality. Like I’ve mentioned earlier, we don’t just look at the applicants’ current skills when hiring them, but rather we consider their potential for growth. In the case of the Motion Designer, while his portfolio was indeed small, he managed to convey a serious and earnest attitude in his work, so I thought we could expect tremendous growth from him in the future.
At what point did you started conveying what you wanted to do?
DM: When I was just starting doing animation, I said that I wanted to do many things, regardless of whether it was a humanoid figure or a creature.
Can you explain the process in creating the motion for the Demon Prince?
Concept art of the Demon Prince.
MD: While the Demon Prince was conceived to be the “strongest demon”, he also has a rotting body, so he doesn’t look like a powerful foe. But because the design order said that they wanted a powerful foe, I was conscious of adding a sense of liveliness by making a strong movement while attacking, and at the same time adding a sense of weakness at various key points. I thought I did my best at the time, but in retrospect I think there are elements that could’ve been expressed a bit better.
M: Since Dark Souls III is the third game in the series, there won’t be any novelty if we keep reusing the same motions as the previous games. Since you’re working from the difficult position of trying to exceed the previous games, I believe you did the best you could.
The motion for the Demon Prince’s howl during heat-up as rendered on 3ds max. The movement is a mixture of weakness and strength.
The motion for the Demon Prince’s mow down and throw, as rendered on 3ds max.
MD: Since the Demon Prince has wings, I was ordered to make it fly, but I told them that the map was too narrow and he would constantly collide with a wall if he did that. I suggested that if you wanted the Demon Prince to fly, we would need to enlarge the map. But we couldn’t enlarge the map, so the flying motion that the commision wanted ended up being discarded and he now regains his composure a bit by doing a little jump. It was necessary to create over a hundred motion patterns, including ones that were discarded, so I was only able to complete in around a month and a half with the help of other people. If I had done all by myself, it would’ve likely taken two months. The more time you spent, the greater the quality, but the amount of time you’re given is limited, so the challenge is to raise the bar as far as you can under such time limit.
Which was your most time-consuming assignment?
MD: When I’m given the order to redo something I’ve made and the moment I must deal with it. Once I’ve finished a motion pattern, we apply it to the game while under development and then verify things with the game’s director and leaders of each department. Around that time, a redo might occur twice on average, with up to three times at most.
Motion for the Demon Prince’s leap attack, as rendered on 3ds max. “In order to create an impression of fear just before the Demon Prince performs his leap attack, we adjusted the way its raises its back, the angle of its chest and the position and angle of its arms several times.” says the motion designer.
Motion for the Demon Prince’s arch leap swoop, as rendered on 3ds max.”Usually I only want to express things by motion only, but occasionally I may scale the character momentarily in certain circumstances such as if the hands are too small or the arms are too thin.” says the motion designer. “In the case of the Demon Prince, he has a motion where his wings are enlarged for a moment in order to make his silhouette bigger.”
You said earlier that there are elements that you wish could’ve been expressed better now. Which parts do you want to fix specifically?
MD: I wanted more mobility from the torso. When you swing your arms for example, you’re likely create a stronger centrifugal force if you use your whole body and move from the waist, rather than just your upper body. This results in a more powerful motion.
M: I was surprised to find out he was not satisfied with the final state and is trying to improve for the next time. We’re both looking forward to working together on our next project.
What kind of career path do you want to follow in the future?
3DGA: I’m interested in creating characters, not just as a specialist on one side, but also as a leader. The amount of character you can make as a single modeller is limited, but as a leader you can reflect your thoughts and essence on various characters through your feedback. I feel that my work could have a huge impact on a project, so I want to be able to create characters as a modeller while also serving as a leader.
DM: Nearly everyone who has a management title in From Software is a so-called “playing manager”. Since the technology for game development progresses quickly, you will become quite anxious if you can’t keep up with it. The leader of the 3D graphics department is an example of a playing manager. He creates 3D models himself while overseeing the modelling and motion work of other artists. You hope for something like that in such an environment. There are no fixed career paths in From Software. In addition to their desires and suitability, each person forges their own career path by consulting their managers and human resources, while also taking into consideration the timing of a game’s development.
MD: In my case I would like to gradually educate myself in rigging and simulation, in addition to further exploring motion work. Let’s say you want a character to have a certain function whenever they move. The more knowledge you have at such a moment, the deeper the discussion you will have when you consult the people in charge of doing the rigging and simulation. I think the motion work can be improved if you can make the adjustments yourself.
M: Currently From Software has no artists specializing in rigging. Staff members who are assigned to do the models or motion design are the ones assigned to do the rigging as well. But because the technique and knowledge required for rigging is becoming more sophisticated throughout the years, I think we might no choice but to hire a rigging specialist in the future.
The rigging of the Demon Prince as rendered on 3ds max. Biped mode (which is used for bipedal models like humans) is used for the body, while CAT mode (a plugin for character animations) is used for the wings and tails. While Biped can be used to create a rig for the wings and tails, CAT is used since the movement of the torso greatly affects things. “Because the wings will tilt greatly whenever the spine is twisted, if you create the rigging using only Biped mode, it takes a considerable amount of time to adjust them if you want the dragon to attack while flapping its wings” says the motion designer. “As a result, the tails and wings are equipped with separate riggings using CAT. That way it’s easier to pierce the tail into the ground and move only the torso.” Apparently such a combination of BIPED and Cat are frequently used on other character models as well. When switching between riggings, a UI is immediately loaded under the character. The UI seemingly allows the developer to change the ratio of the rigging, even while the character model is in motion.
Finally, can you imparts your wisdoms to readers who are wondering about how they could improve the quality of their work?
3DGA: I’m always conscious of why I’m designing something in my case. For example, if you create a dragon without thinking about it too deeply, you’ll end up with a 3D model that has very little emphasis of the joints.
What do you mean by “emphasis of the joints”?
3DGA: If you are conscious of the silhouette and skeleton, you will create a compelling 3D model that expresses details such as a subtle bulge on the pelvis or the root of its tail. You must understand realism first if you wanted to achieve something that. I suggest that instead of starting from a concept art, study reptiles like crocodiles or lizards or the skeletons of extinct dinosaurs, and from that point follow the procedure on how to create a dragon by adding your own design and style to it. It’s the same deal with designing armors. It is important that you first study actual armors that were used in real life, and then drill their shapes and structures into your head if you want to design your own armor. I believe your skills will improve if you practice that habit. Many of the designs that are spread around the world were only made after much elaboration. Because players are used to such designs, it will feel unnatural or bad if they somehow detect a failure in their structures.
MD: I believe having a purpose is important too. Although it might sound a bit too similar to the previous story, but with animation you will not be lost if you’re set on your purpose. Even if the motion you came up is different from what you had in mind, you will immediately understand what you did differently. For example, if you add a motion for walking, the way the character walks will differ depending on whether the character is just walking for no particular reason, walking to transport something or walking to get somewhere. Enthusiasm is also important. When I started doing animation, my work wasn’t moving enough despite my best efforts. But as I gained experience, I gradually started seeing minor improvements in my work. I want you to move things as much as you can when you move it with a bang
DM: Terms like “structure”, “motive” and “enthusiasm” has already been brought up here, so I would like to add “functionality” to the mix. When designing a weapon for example, it must have a functionality such as cutting or stabbing. Depending on which of these functionalities you pick, the design of the weapon, the way that you hold it and the attacking motion might differ. Even the act of just walking as was mentioned earlier, good motions cannot be applied without understanding the essential functionalities. For example, the act of walking could said to be a repetition of the act of falling down towards the direction you’re heading combined with the act of putting your foot out to keep you from falling. Once you understand that, you can compose a way of walking. If you don’t do that and thinking of walking as simply putting your feet out and then adding motion, you will be told that it doesn’t look like a walk. You could think of structure, purpose and functionality, as well as the role, as workers within the game who take shape by relaying orders from the director. That’s how games are made.
It seems there’s way to improve the quality of your work if you can summarize and understand each of those four aspects one-by-one.
DM: Even now, I still submit some half-baked shallow character designs and the director will scold me by telling me “don’t make a character for a video game.”
But you’re making a character for a video game…
DM: It sounds like a contradiction at first, but we’re not trying to make polygonal dolls, we want to make characters that feel they’re a living person. If your plan is to make a game character from the beginning, it won’t feel like a living person. For example, if you create a character who is a priest, he will not be very convincing unless you also depict his strong belief in God and convey that in the character’s design. In the case of the Demon Prince, he is a contradiction in the sense that he is said to be the strongest demon, but he also half-decaying. The players can imagine various backstories in their mind, such as “I only won at the last moment because he was already decaying. If I had fought him during his prime, I would’ve never won.” Because it’s not a simple backstory, like “he’s a fire-based creature, so use water-based attacks”, it helps you get immersed deeply into the game’s universe.
DM: Real people are complex and filled with contradictions. You can’t comprehend them if you only know one side. When creating a character we think about their complexities and contradictions by at least one level, two levels if possible and three levels if we really think about them deeply. By doing so, we end up with a fascinating character that attracts players.
It seems you need to understand people deeply in order to create deep characters.
DM: All the previous directors employed by From Software have been mysterious individuals that were not easy to comprehend, so that served as a good motivator. Among them, there were two who claimed that back in their grade school days, they read every book in the shelves of their local local library in alphabetical order. The average person, when they start reading books, they usually start with their favorite genre. Those two were completely different in the way they gathered information and how they perceived society.
DM: Even if we can’t imitate them completely, I think there’s a way to becoming open to new experiences by coming into contact with new people and information as much as possible. There are many cases where a person can express themselves in a unique matter for the first time by using their knowledge from a specialized field while exploring another field. For example, the 3D graphic artist majored in economics, but I don’t think there are that many other people employed by From Software who studied that field. That’s why he has a unique perspective nobody else in the company has. I want more people to deepen their understanding of the world through every form of research and experience they can acquire.
The Demon Prince, as it appears in the game.